Thursday, January 26, 2012

Making the Cut - Part 1 (Deadly Towers 1987)

If you remember (or go back to read) my previous post on determining a CRPG, then you'll find this rubric familiar. Feel free to skip to the bottom where I use it to show why I'm not playing Deadly Towers, and I include Phantasy Star for comparison. To start, I broke down the elements most commonly found in CRPGs here:

  1. Character Advancement: practice/experience based advancement, stat or level increases, multiple classes or characters, customize characters
  2. Combat: character stats used for combat, additional combat options, turn based
  3. Items and Equipment: store to buy and sell, equipment decisions, item decisions
  4. Story: main story at the forefront; world full of lore; descriptions for objects, people, and places
  5. Exploration: open world from the beginning, visited locations remain open
  6. Quests and Puzzles: side quests not related to the main quest, puzzles and riddles to solve

    Now, I've put it into practice on a number of games; so far it's stood up to my intuition. This is how I use it: each aspect is worth 1 point except the first item in character, combat, and items, which are worth 2 points (max is 20). If a game has 10 points or more, then I'll consider it a CRPG. I'm sure this isn't perfect, so let me know where improvements are needed.

    I condensed my thoughts as much as I could in the above while trying to maintain intuitive meanings; however, in case my intention isn't clear here's a more detailed explanation for each point:

    Character Advancement
    • Practice/experience based advancement - This covers skills getting better through use or experience points gained from repeated actions (e.g. combat, tasks, exploration, or quests). This doesn't include levels or experience gained at set points in the game (i.e. get to dungeon level 2, become character level 2).
    • Stat or level increases - Why is this separate? Well, to give the games that don't cover the item above a chance. Some games I'd still consider CRPGs even if they have set levels.
    • Multiple classes or characters - Character choices feels more like role-playing.
    • Customize characters - Customization beyond a character's class. Choosing stats, skills, and appearance are examples of this. Again, increased options for role-playing and creating a character to suit the player's wants are a good thing.
    Combat
    • Character stats used for combat - If the game isn't using character stats, then why does my character matter? Static damage based on equipment, buffs from items, weapon range, and collision based hitting are all examples where this isn't the case. If it doesn't matter what character I'm playing, then it isn't role-playing.
    • Additional combat options - Something beyond attacking, defending, and healing. This includes magic, sub-weapons, evasive techniques, or something that makes fighting more interesting than button mashing.
    • Turn-based - Turn-based combat just feels more strategic, more RPG-like. I'll accept some real-time aspects, but turn-based mechanics should underlie the actions.
    Items and Equipment
    • Store to buy and sell - I'm warming up to the idea that CRPGs need an economy that matters. What's the purpose of collecting all these swords if I can't sell the ones I don't use anymore? Note that buying and selling are necessary to count this one.
    • Equipment decisions - Interesting equipment decisions. (i.e. higher armor, or lesser armor with elemental bonuses; trident or spear?) If everything is just an upgrade, then it's not a decision, there's nothing to weigh or consider.
    • Item decisions - Same goes here, there needs to be interesting considerations for items. (i.e. When should I use the protective shield? Should I save the flying boots for pits or use it to avoid attacks?) I don't include healing items. Also, the distinction between items and equipment in my mind is items are consumable (or one or more uses, but limited) and equipment are not.
    Story
    • Main story at the forefront - The story is mentioned more than in the manual, at the beginning of the game, and at the end. It's the main goal of the game, and it should matter throughout the game.
    • World full of lore - Whether from NPCs, signs, old computers, audio messages, etc. the world should present a complete picture. Information regarding ancient empires or even messages scrawled on the walls, the purpose here is to get background on the game world.
    • Descriptions for objects, people, and places - This is mainly for items and equipment. Knowing which weapons are better, what additional use they have, or the usefulness of items is vital to the story and enjoyment of the game. People and places are included as possibilities in games without items and equipment. (Are there any?) I dislike situations where I'm given a choice between two swords, and there's no indication of which is better.
    Exploration
    • Open world from the beginning - Go anywhere! Well, nearly anywhere. This is more loosely defined than it sounds, and I give concessions for things like hidden towns or dungeons, possibly the occasional 'locked gate'. A feeling of being dragged in one direction is the issue I'm trying to avoid by including this point. Any alteration from "finish level 1, level 2 unlocked, finish level 2, level 3 unlocked..." should qualify.
    • Visited locations remain open - This seems very similar to the one above, but it addresses cutting off backtracking. Arbitrary restrictions on traveling to previously visited locations are bad in my book. Sure, if the game says the evil empire took over the town you were just in, then maybe I could believe that, but why can't I walk left in Super Mario Bros.? (Okay, not an RPG, but you get the point.)
    Quests and Puzzles
    • Side quests - Any quest left uncompleted without preventing completion of the main quest is considered a side quest. These activities should add to the game world.
    • Puzzles and riddles - I like puzzles that fit inside the world and story, or riddles solved by knowing about the history, lore, or current events in the game. Anything that doesn't fit the game doesn't fit here.

    If I were to change anything, I might get rid of puzzles and riddles and combine exploration into one calling it quests and exploration, but 20 is nice round number. This is a work in progress, and will remain so throughout this blog I expect.


    So, on to the games (finally). The first game up is Miracle Warriors: Seal of the Dark Lord. I don't have a Sega Master System, so that will have to wait. From what I can tell, the game qualifies, but I haven't seen enough to judge it on this scale. So, on to the next game (and first game to be cut), Deadly Towers.
    Not as pretty a screen as The Legend of Zelda, but it has scrolling text detailing the story.
    I haven't played Deadly Towers much, but from what I've seen of the game it doesn't qualify for this project.

    (NES) Deadly Towers
    1. (1) - Character advancement: stat or level increases
    2. (0) - Combat: none
    3. (1) - Items and equipment: item decisions
    4. (1) - Story: main story at the forefront
    5. (2) - Exploration: visited locations remain open, open world from the beginning
    6. (0) - Quests and Puzzles: none
    Final Rating [5]

    Why is this called a role-playing game? My best guess is that this was such an early game that no one had anything else to compare it to except for role-playing games. Even the back of the box mentions, "Arcade action with role-playing game depth." I'll give it credit for trying.

    It has many things going for it, including an open world to explore (well an open dungeon is more like it), a store to purchase items (I don't believe you can sell), health and equipment upgrades, and a main story with short-term goals that show progress. However, even with all of this, at its core, it's an action game. This type of game would come to be known as action-adventures instead of action-RPGs, and have more in common with The Legend of Zelda than Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.
    I'm dying to know what that Japanese text says; probably developer names so I know who to curse.
    To give the CRPG rating system a good workout, and as a comparison to the above, here's the first game I plan to play:

    (SMS) Phantasy Star
    1) 4 - Character advancement: practice/experience based advancement, stat or level increases, multiple classes or characters
    2) 4 - Combat: character stats used for combat, additional combat options, turn based
    3) 4 - Items and equipment: store to buy and sell, equipment decisions, item decisions
    4) 2 - Story: main story at the forefront; world full of hints and lore
    5) 2 - Exploration: open world from the beginning, visited locations remain open
    6) 1 - Quests and Puzzles: side quests not related to the main quest
    Final Rating [17]

    Definitely looking forward to this one. I plan one more post before playing Tuesday night, showing off a mapping tool to be used for 2D maps.

    24 comments:

    1. You can play SMS games with the Gens+ emulator. I haven't played them that much, mostly the Genesis games, but I know those ROMs will at least load. :)

      Don't knock action RPGs. I prefer them too, but just think... Skyrim isn't turn-based either. ;)

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    2. By "prefer them too," I meant that I prefer turn-based. :)

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    3. Oh, I'm not knocking action-RPGs. Just Deadly Towers calling itself an one. I enjoy both, but the main differences here are the first requirement of character, combat, and items lists. Deadly Towers doesn't have any of them, Skyrim does.

      I'm really trying to avoid emulation. Money is tight at the moment, but later this year I'm hoping I'm in a better position to purchase some of this stuff. Looking ahead, TurboDuo is going to be a major purchase (wasn't expecting this). So, I'm starting to plan ahead now in hopes I won't have to skip over other games. In order to do this though, I'm expecting to have to buy these things and sell them off once they've passed their usefulness.

      I mean, who's really looking forward to Miracle Warriors and Dragon Crystal? ;)

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    4. Actually, many of CRPGAddict's most interesting posts were of the more obscure games on his list. He was able to explore the possible reasons behind the games' relative anonymity (was it an awful game or just bad marketing, etc.). One of the advantages of a chronological playthrough like this is uncovering hidden gems and sharing that knowledge with the world. So, don't discount those lesser-known games, some of us are interested!

      Also, let's face it, sometimes reading about horrible games can be very entertaining (but probably not when you're the one playing them). Good luck in your quest, and sticking to the "play until the end" rule!

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      1. I agree on the obscure games: The well known ones, both good and bad, are all over the net. It is the hidden gems and horrors I want to find.

        I found Chrontendo even better then the Addict for finding hidden gems, but that might just be because he doesn't play every game to the end, so he has gotten through a lot more games. Also he has been around longer.

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    5. Since I saw Ultima III on your list, I had to ask: wouldn't this be considered a PC port, and thus against the console game rule? It's also not really a "console-style RPG" in the traditional sense. I was wondering what your thoughts were on that.

      Also, I'd be curious to see where the RPG Scale falls on Zelda II. It's probably the most RPGish of the series.

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    6. All very good points geno:

      Obscure games: I'm definitely not discounting any games because they're not well known. Only poking fun at the obscurity of SMS games. I do plan to play them, and give them their due. Horribly bad games are fun to watch, and I think the first one I'll get to is Hydlide, or possibly Exodus (not sure how the port went).

      Ports: The rule is that it needs to have a console release, and I'll play the console version. I'd rather not spend time cutting out games just because they came out on the PC first. My thoughts here are to imagine I only have consoles, and I'll play anything that looks like an RPG. I think it'll make for good information to compare the console ports to the originals. To only play console-style RPGs is too limiting I think. I don't feel like I'm explaining it well, but I hope you get the idea.

      Zelda II: I somehow missed this, and it wasn't on the list. I've added it, and it's scheduled soon. I better get some more Wii Points to buy it up. To answer your curiosity, I quickly ran it through the scale, and based on what I recall, it's a 10 or 11.

      Thank you for bringing all these up.

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      1. I do belive that Hydlide came out on the NES before the SMS, though I could be wrong on that. A useful tool for you could be Chrontendo, Chronsega and Chronturbo: chrontendo.blogspot.com/ since he is playing *every* official NES, SMS or Tgfx16 game. You could scan through his writings or vids and pick out the CRPGS.

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      2. There's going to some differences in the timeline for my playlist and Dr. Sparkle's Chron series. He goes off the original release date for the systems, which includes the Japanese release dates. I'm using the US release date to get a more Western perspective on games.

        Dragon Quest (Warrior), Hydlide, and other games came out before Phantasy Star in the Japan, but Phantasy Star was the first big RPG in the US. Maybe this perspective isn't as interesting as I thought. I'm hoping it'll expose more reasons why some RPGs that were good when they were released just don't stand up against the current peers on their release in this market.

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    7. For comparison with Zelda II, The Legend of Zelda gets a 6 while The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past would get a 9 I believe.

      If there's interest in other games not on the list, people can suggest I look at games, and I'll make a post of them. It's probably good idea to run through some games nobody considers RPGs to make sure the scale is properly adjusted.

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    8. Question:
      Character stats used for combat - If the game isn't using character stats, then why does my character matter? Static damage based on equipment, buffs from items, weapon range, and collision based hitting are all examples where this isn't the case. If it doesn't matter what character I'm playing, then it isn't role-playing.
      What about games where your damage is purely weapon based, but your say, movement is raised by experience? Or your jump distance, stealth, social skills or something? Nothing directly combat related, but things that could be useful indirectly.

      No, I don't know any games like this, but I'm curious how they would rate.

      Store to buy and sell - I'm warming up to the idea that CRPGs need an economy that matters. What's the purpose of collecting all these swords if I can't sell the ones I don't use anymore? Note that buying and selling are necessary to count this one. I recall hearing about some games where you can't buy and sell things, but can melt items down to make stronger ones and things like that: Would they still count?

      Descriptions for objects, people, and places - This is mainly for items and equipment. Knowing which weapons are better, what additional use they have, or the usefulness of items is vital to the story and enjoyment of the game. People and places are included as possibilities in games without items and equipment. (Are there any?) I dislike situations where I'm given a choice between two swords, and there's no indication of which is better. I like this. I dislike games like Diablo or Torchlight where you are just given a wall of numbers. Balder's gate and Fallout Tactics were great at this. Skyrim is mixed (Great books, but items are just a picture and numbers)

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      1. Character Stats in Combat - It really depends on what "combat" means. In most games it's obvious, and I think we can generalize it as the main source of conflict resolution. If it's a game where we talk our way out of things, then a stat used for that skill would probably fall under this.

        To take your example, if those skills are used in "combat" and not just to get around the world, then I'm leaning towards not counting it. Of course, it gets even muddier if those skills are used to avoid "combat" events. If I ever find a game this convoluted, then I just may play it because of the intrigue it'd create. :D

        Store to Buy and Sell - I think this is close to the above as well. I may consider it very strongly. As long as there's a benefit to collecting items and equipment, and that benefit directly leads to getting more items and equipment, then I think it'll meet this in a general sense.

        Descriptions - I didn't mean to imply that all information should be exposed. I meant there should exist a way to find descriptions on the items so that I can weigh the decisions. Even if this means I need to cast Detect Magic, and only get a general sense of the power level, then I think it'll apply. Baldur's Gate still gave feedback on which sword was better (+1 or +3), and have damage statistics. I'm not looking for everything possible, just something.

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    9. For description I thought you were toking about lore info, not stats. For example BG wrote out a description of each item, skyrim just shows a picture.

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      1. Ah, well, I guess both can count, as long as the lore info is in some way related to how strong it is. I was contemplating adding this to Item and Equipment instead, but generally the description is story related as well, so I put it in that section (not that it really matters).

        As a current example, Phantasy Star has stronger items costing (or selling for) more, but it also mentions Laconian is the strongest material (and thus the best equipment). I think either one would satisfy that area. This also has ties with "equipment decisions" area, so maybe it's redundant and should only be counted for story, lore, background related descriptions. I'm torn now...

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    10. I have to say that Making the Cut seems a confusing title for games that apparently don't "make the cut". Am I misinterpreting something?

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      1. I actually thought the same way. If a game isn't considered an RPG and thus is not reviewed or played through in this blog, I would say that it did *not* make the cut.

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      2. Yes, I guess that's my strange sense of humor trying a play on words. Is it really too confusing though? I think I'll change it then. How does "Cut Short" sound? Not as confusing I'm guessing, and I still get to use the word 'cut'. ;)

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      3. If you really want to use the word cut, then what about Cut and Run?

        That's about all I can come up with.

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      4. I'm not thrilled with the historical significance of that phrase. Thoughts on Cut Short or Cut Down? I leaning towards Cut Short because their time to shine with other RPGs is not long lived.

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      1. This could actually work better. If you don't mind I'll take this and mix it up a bit. Maybe I'll make a poll actually to choose with all the good ideas.

        Thanks for the suggestions.

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      2. I hate to throw another name into the mix, but what about Cut Down to Size rather than just Cut Down (which is currently leading the poll)?

        We're probably overanalysing things, but I guess it would be nice to avoid any confusion for new readers.

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      3. Over-analyzing is my specialty. I would add it as an option, but I've unfortunately found that I can't modify a poll once a vote is cast on it. We'll see how the poll goes over the next week or so.

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